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	<title>Comments on: Sociobiology shows us why racial integration is so hard, and so important</title>
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	<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/</link>
	<description>Biology News Biology Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Brian Schmidt</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Schmidt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-380</guid>
		<description>For once, I&#039;ll agree with the Village Idiot that your summation of conservative views about rights isn&#039;t the full argument.  Your summation explains libertarian conservative views.  There are plenty, probably a majority, of conservatives who favor societal welfare over individual rights - it&#039;s just that their vision of societal welfare is pretty scary, and what they end up creating is even worse than what they attempt to create.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For once, I&#8217;ll agree with the Village Idiot that your summation of conservative views about rights isn&#8217;t the full argument.  Your summation explains libertarian conservative views.  There are plenty, probably a majority, of conservatives who favor societal welfare over individual rights &#8211; it&#8217;s just that their vision of societal welfare is pretty scary, and what they end up creating is even worse than what they attempt to create.</p>
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		<title>By: Carnival of Progressive Politics &#8212; March 2010 Edition &#171; My Political Side</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>Carnival of Progressive Politics &#8212; March 2010 Edition &#171; My Political Side</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-378</guid>
		<description>[...] offers Sociobiology shows us . . . at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] offers Sociobiology shows us . . . at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Survey Magnet Carnival of Opinions 3-14-2010&#160;&#124;&#160;SurveyMagnet.com</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-370</link>
		<dc:creator>Survey Magnet Carnival of Opinions 3-14-2010&#160;&#124;&#160;SurveyMagnet.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-370</guid>
		<description>[...] it can&#8217;t try to eliminate its nuclear stockpile at the same time.&#8221;   Biotunes presents Sociobiology shows us why racial integration is so hard, and so important posted at Bioblog by Biotunes, saying, &#8220;On the importance of reversing the current trend back [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it can&#8217;t try to eliminate its nuclear stockpile at the same time.&#8221;   Biotunes presents Sociobiology shows us why racial integration is so hard, and so important posted at Bioblog by Biotunes, saying, &#8220;On the importance of reversing the current trend back [...]</p>
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		<title>By: biotunes</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-369</link>
		<dc:creator>biotunes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-369</guid>
		<description>Yes, Idiot, you are certainly a shining example of humility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Idiot, you are certainly a shining example of humility.</p>
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		<title>By: Assistant Village Idiot</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>Assistant Village Idiot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-368</guid>
		<description>&quot;...for us to stay on the alternate path toward racial equality, we have to work at it continually. Even if this is ultimately a sisyphean task, and we can never reach a stable end point, the very act of trying will make us a better country in the long run.&quot;

An excellent example of how liberalism is a religion.  One reference, dated and methodologically poor, and you hang an entire design for the culture around it.  You will not see that because the religion is shared by CC&#039;s original, the blogger, and the commenters.

Your summation of the conservative argument about individual rights trumping others is less than half the explanation.  Again, evidence that it is not that liberals do not agree with conservative arguments, they simply do not understand what they are.  Not that this makes them any less certain.

First, and before anything else can be learned, must come the humility that maybe, just maybe, there is an elephant in the room you are missing.  No, not an elephant.  Bad analogy on my part.  There are many mice in the room.  You must allow yourself to see at least one before you should dare to suggest policy.  The rabbinic habit of switching sides before the argument closes might be of help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;for us to stay on the alternate path toward racial equality, we have to work at it continually. Even if this is ultimately a sisyphean task, and we can never reach a stable end point, the very act of trying will make us a better country in the long run.&#8221;</p>
<p>An excellent example of how liberalism is a religion.  One reference, dated and methodologically poor, and you hang an entire design for the culture around it.  You will not see that because the religion is shared by CC&#8217;s original, the blogger, and the commenters.</p>
<p>Your summation of the conservative argument about individual rights trumping others is less than half the explanation.  Again, evidence that it is not that liberals do not agree with conservative arguments, they simply do not understand what they are.  Not that this makes them any less certain.</p>
<p>First, and before anything else can be learned, must come the humility that maybe, just maybe, there is an elephant in the room you are missing.  No, not an elephant.  Bad analogy on my part.  There are many mice in the room.  You must allow yourself to see at least one before you should dare to suggest policy.  The rabbinic habit of switching sides before the argument closes might be of help.</p>
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		<title>By: Biotunes</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>Biotunes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-367</guid>
		<description>Hawai`i is a great example.  I had the great fortune to live there for several years, and you are right on about race relations in Hawai`i.  For example, interracial marriage in Hawai`i was not even thought about in separate terms from other marriage, long before miscegenation laws ruled throughout the continental U.S, which is another example of how well integration works.

Although you are right that the Akaka bill, which is similar to federal recognition of American Indian tribes, singles out a particular ethnic group, I believe you are wrong that this somehow will promote segregation. Within Hawai`i, the bill has uniform support across the races and cultures, and has brought them together behind a single issue, which I&#039;m sure would never happen if Hawai`i currently had segregation.  (Do you live there now? If so, how long?   I would be interested to know.)

Legislation dealing with indigenous peoples is often complicated and controversial (and different from the integration of blacks and whites in the CONUS) because it is primarily about some small bit of reparation for massive exploitation in the past, even though it is for people who weren&#039;t around when the exploitation occurred.  

The best reason I can think of for it is that it is a gesture to show that descendants from a land whose people had been there longer than anyone else would have the rights to conserve their culture.  It really wasn&#039;t that long ago that expressing any aspect of native culture was explicitly banned, which I think we can agree was wrong even if we prefer a cultural melting pot.   There really isn&#039;t anything in there to physically separate Hawaiians from non - they will continue to interact as before.

So I don&#039;t think you can&#039;t honestly say that this legislation is truly singling out native Hawaiians for special treatment, any more than similar laws for continental American Indians have given them any special advantage over whites (especially since gambling is explicitly not part of the package in this case).  Knowing what I do about Linda Lingle, if the bill had any teeth to do that, she (and other races in the Hawaiian legislature) would not support it.  I don&#039;t know of any whites who actually feel that they would be better off being an Indian because the Bureau of Indian Affairs exists.  (The reservation system, which does maintain segregation, was not really part of those laws, and was originally imposed by whites.  Indians were basically herded onto them by whites after it was decided belatedly that maybe it wasn&#039;t right to just kill them all.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hawai`i is a great example.  I had the great fortune to live there for several years, and you are right on about race relations in Hawai`i.  For example, interracial marriage in Hawai`i was not even thought about in separate terms from other marriage, long before miscegenation laws ruled throughout the continental U.S, which is another example of how well integration works.</p>
<p>Although you are right that the Akaka bill, which is similar to federal recognition of American Indian tribes, singles out a particular ethnic group, I believe you are wrong that this somehow will promote segregation. Within Hawai`i, the bill has uniform support across the races and cultures, and has brought them together behind a single issue, which I&#8217;m sure would never happen if Hawai`i currently had segregation.  (Do you live there now? If so, how long?   I would be interested to know.)</p>
<p>Legislation dealing with indigenous peoples is often complicated and controversial (and different from the integration of blacks and whites in the CONUS) because it is primarily about some small bit of reparation for massive exploitation in the past, even though it is for people who weren&#8217;t around when the exploitation occurred.  </p>
<p>The best reason I can think of for it is that it is a gesture to show that descendants from a land whose people had been there longer than anyone else would have the rights to conserve their culture.  It really wasn&#8217;t that long ago that expressing any aspect of native culture was explicitly banned, which I think we can agree was wrong even if we prefer a cultural melting pot.   There really isn&#8217;t anything in there to physically separate Hawaiians from non &#8211; they will continue to interact as before.</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t think you can&#8217;t honestly say that this legislation is truly singling out native Hawaiians for special treatment, any more than similar laws for continental American Indians have given them any special advantage over whites (especially since gambling is explicitly not part of the package in this case).  Knowing what I do about Linda Lingle, if the bill had any teeth to do that, she (and other races in the Hawaiian legislature) would not support it.  I don&#8217;t know of any whites who actually feel that they would be better off being an Indian because the Bureau of Indian Affairs exists.  (The reservation system, which does maintain segregation, was not really part of those laws, and was originally imposed by whites.  Indians were basically herded onto them by whites after it was decided belatedly that maybe it wasn&#8217;t right to just kill them all.)</p>
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		<title>By: GPHanner</title>
		<link>http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/2010/03/09/sociobiology-shows-us-why-racial-integration-is-so-hard-and-so-important/#comment-366</link>
		<dc:creator>GPHanner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bioblog.biotunes.org/bioblog/?p=634#comment-366</guid>
		<description>If your last paragraph is true, why do we see things like the Akaka Bill, which is intended to single out &quot;native Hawaiians,&quot; whatever that is, for special treatment?  Culturally and racially, the people of Hawaii are as much a melting pot as I have ever seen, yet someone wants to impose a form of segregation on the population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your last paragraph is true, why do we see things like the Akaka Bill, which is intended to single out &#8220;native Hawaiians,&#8221; whatever that is, for special treatment?  Culturally and racially, the people of Hawaii are as much a melting pot as I have ever seen, yet someone wants to impose a form of segregation on the population.</p>
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